Attention all Asgardians!

[mangy-mongrel.livejournal.com]

Hi! This is for Pestiday, Loki and Muriel (although maybe not so much Muriel). The rest of you might like to avert your eyes if you don't want to know about the potential relationships between Odin, Loki, Uriel and Hel.

I hate time disparities.



1) Loki was jealous of Baldur and the attention he was getting from Odin, so he hatched a plan to get rid of Baldur. This has implications for Muriel in that Uriel could be in peril from Loki.

2) Loki wanted to get revenge on Odin, and make him feel what losing a child might be like, for sending his three children away/locking them up/throwing them in the sea, so he killed Baldur. This might mean that Odin hasn't forgiven Loki, and Loki might feel guilty.

3) It was an accident - Loki was playing a harmless prank on Baldur, and didn't know that the wound would be fatal. Loki might feel guilty, and it would weigh heavily on his conscience, which would possibly aggravate his condition, and jeopardize his relationship with Odin.

4) Loki knew that Hel had a crush on Baldur, so he sent him down to accompany her. Hel isn't very happy with Loki about him sending Baldur down to her realm though.

5) It was a complete misunderstanding - Loki was innocent.

6) To protect Baldur from Ragnarok, Odin asked Loki to send Baldur to Hel's realm, which would remain intact after Ragnarok. If so, Hel doesn't know about this.



If anyone has any other ideas, or any options, feel free to chip in. For more information about the probable relationships between these three/four Asgardians, you can refer to this thread.

Comments

[bipolar-uriel.livejournal.com]

Time differences suck. *is secretly gleeful at having been called Asgardian*

Anyway. This doesn't touch Uriel much, aside from the first theory, but the dealings between Odin, Loki, and Hell will be likely to at least somehow involve him, too, considering that he and Odin are brothers. Personally, I could go with any of the theories.

I'm not too fond of the first one. This is partly because of the danger it might represent to Uriel's baby, partly because if Uriel's going to convince Loki to live on after Odin's death (which I desperately hope will not happen, though -- Odin's death, that is) it would be much more difficult if there were such differences between them. Unless Loki objects too much, I'd like to see them, if not a friendship, then at least a truce, and that might take quite some work if Loki was truly jealous of Uriel to the point of being ready to dispose of him by any possible means.

My favourite theory? Four or six, because I think those would best suit the personalities of the figments and have least problems (no strain on Loki's emotions or between Loki and Odin, no danger of death to Uriel) while still being somewhat believable. In both theories, however, there is a problem -- we'd have to figure out a reason why Odin never told the truth to Hel.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_silverfox/]

Yep, you're definitely Asgardian - by adoption as is Loki.

I don't like the first theory, even though i suggested it. I'd like to have the fight between Loki and Uriel be an attempt of Loki to chase Uriel off while Uriel is fighting his way into the family. In time Uriel wins as Loki becomes used to having him around and their fighting turnes into a sort of sibling rivalry and finally friendly teasing.

I like both two and three except for the consequences they'd have on Loki's relationship with Odin.

Something about four doesn't feel right to me, but I can't put my finger on the problem. (It's a damn annoying thing that happens to me from time to time. A plot just doesn't feel right, but I don't know why until somebody else puts it into words.)

Five would need more details: How come Hel and Odin are so convinced of Loki's guilt? (see Odin's visit to Hel's realm) And if they are, what are Odin's feelings about it?

Six is great, because it gets around all the other problems, but we already saw Odin visit Hel and he didn't tell her. Why would Oedin let a favour Loki did to him get between Loki and his daughter like that? It seems like punishment rather than gratitude.

[lumelle.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree with your plan for the developement of Loki and Uriel's relationship. It would not only be fun, but als oteh best possible option for all involved. (And it'd give a good foundation for Loki teaching all kind of lies and tricks to Uriel's kid just to annoy him. XD)

Perhaps the problem about four is, if Loki wanted to bring his daughter and Baldur together, he would rather try to get Hel out of Helheim rather than force Baldur there?

Myself, I do like the sixth one best. There's still the problem of why Odin didn't tell her... But... *pauses*


Look, I don't know if this is a completely idiotic idea. It might be, but it might not be, too. Feel free to kick me if it's absolutely impossible.

Fact #1: The Hel/Odin post was a part of Odin's search for Vandemar and Croup to pay back for what they did to Marquis de Carabas.

Fact #2: We do not have Marquis anymore.

Fact #3: Consequently, we do not have the Marquis/Vandemar&Croup subplot anymore. (Hel/Vandemar&Croup does still exist, though.)

Fact #4: The post has nothing to do with any other subplots that may possibly be going on. (Except for the Hel/V&C, but the details of the post are not important, aside from the fact that Hel was attacked.)

Fact #5: The only place where it has been mentioned to another character is the Godbrothers thread, in which Odin never went into detail about anything that had been said.

Fact #6: The post was made by Odin, who can do about anything to it.

The conclusion: Why can't Odin simply modify or delete the post? Then we wouldn't have to come up with reasons about why Odin didn't tell her. Her anger was mentioned in Godbrothers, but it was never told to be because of Baldur's fate.

Not only would this solve the why-didn't-Odin-tell problem, but it would also pretty much make Hel a tabula rasa and thus it would be possible to develope her into any desired direction -- and although she's still filled with anger, her reasons for it could be freely chosen.

Actually, in Godbrothers it wasn't even mentioned whether she's angry with Loki or somebody else. Odin might just as well mean that she is angry at Vandemar and Croup -- that she's always been angry at somebody, at her father at first, and now at the ones who hurt her.


Most probably I have overlooked or simply forgotten something, or this idea might be absolutely impossible, or there may be no sense in it at all. However, I'd like to at least hear your opinions about it.

[mangy-mongrel.livejournal.com]

Why can't Odin simply modify or delete the post? Then we wouldn't have to come up with reasons about why Odin didn't tell her. Her anger was mentioned in Godbrothers, but it was never told to be because of Baldur's fate.

That was what I was thinking too, but we'll have to wait for Pestiday to come back first.

Myself, I like the 6th one best (heh.. my own baby), and as to why Odin never told Hel, it could be because he wanted to keep his reputation squeaky clean? (Not that he really has a squeaky clean reputation...) All the other gods were clamouring for Loki's punishment, and Odin could have stopped it at a word. In this way Loki was betrayed by Odin - who's to say that Odin wouldn't have carried the betrayal to not telling Hel?

[allfather-odin.livejournal.com]

Yo- I'm back :-)

Well, I am up for everything- I have one additional suggestion. The Norse religion was all about predestination and Loki's reasoning for killing Baldur could be blamed on an reason, but the underlying truth would be that he had no choice in the matter... it is only now when the following of the Asgardians has waned that they have true free will, so now they have the luxury (or curse) to question their actions. It is a little like Odin has with Thor- Odin probably couldn't have cared less about insulting Thor, but now feels guilt for not being a better father- Plus, these characters have been around a long time, and sociel ideas have changed- what was an acceptable thing to do to ones children (or another's) was less cuddly than it is now- while the gods still maintain their basic core, their views might have changed some. They may have adapted.

What does this have to do with anything? I'm not entirely sure, but I think it is stuff we can take into account while we figure out the plans-

Here is my suggestion. Baldur was killed by Loki for a couple of reasons 1) He's the god of chaos and killing Baldur would accomplish that, plus it was pre-destined that he should kill Baldur, so in a way he was just following orders. As for subconscious/coscious reasons, maybe part of his reasoning was to punish Odin for binding his children, maybe part of it was to give Hel's lover to her... maybe there were even more reasons. We always have lots of subconscious reasons for doing things.

Hel, at the time, was probably pleased to have Baldur in her realm, thinking she could win his love. That is why she demanded that all things weep for him. A tough order, but Loki once again worked to keep Baldur in her realm. (assuming that he did this of his own will)

Now, though, as time has gone on, Baldur has become a shell of his former self (perhaps) or perhaps it is just the stigma of shame that has caused him to deteriorate, and Hel sees that keeping him in Hel was not a good thing and blames Loki-

Now I just read all this, and it is not only complex but would dictate the actions of Hel- maybe it won't work- We'll figure something out, though!

If there is a complete consensus that I should change the posts, I will.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_silverfox/]

Actually, I don't like the idea of deleting the post all that much. It just feels wrong to go back and eddit something that's been there so long. (And if you do delete it, I'd once again be tempted to play the Saxo version, where Loki was an innocent bystander, if he was there at all.)

[mangy-mongrel.livejournal.com]

Well, ok, I can go either way about deleting the post. We'll see.

[bipolar-uriel.livejournal.com]

I probably wouldn't feel too comfortable with it, either. It would be wrong to go and change it to suit our purposes now. I suggested that because it would probably be the easiest way to deal with this problem. And I did say that you can feel free to kick me for it.

^_^' So, the general opinion seems to be mostly against the editing/deleting. We need something else, then. Odin's suggestion sounds very good to me, if Hel can agree to that.

[mangy-mongrel.livejournal.com]

So. Various reasons? Should we combine 1), 2), 4) and Pestiday's suggestions then? XD

No, really, I'm not kidding. Then, because of the complexities of the reasons, they never got around to telling Hel anything at all. Of course, this makes Loki out to be sort of a bad guy (but honestly, he is the chaos god, as Pestiday said), but he could regret it now?

[bipolar-uriel.livejournal.com]

Sounds good to me. Of course, I suspect it's Loki's opinion that matters most.

[leucemic-god.livejournal.com]

Well, Loki tends to just consider past things past, so his regret is usually short lived, but I suppose he would feel different where Odin is concerned.

[mangy-mongrel.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying that Loki should be regretful... just suggesting it :Þ You're free to decide if he should be regretful or not. So we're going with this then? A combination of 1), 2), 4) and Pestiday's?

[leucemic-god.livejournal.com]

Well, I've got nothing against it, if everybody else agrees.

[mangy-mongrel.livejournal.com]

Yay! Alright.. Now I'll just stalk AIM until I can find Pestiday and ask her.

[mangy-mongrel.livejournal.com]

So because they were gods then, and people believed in them, they had to do what people believed they would do?

Also, why is there shame for Baldur for being in Helheim? (Unless of course it's because of the stigma of being associated with the werak and the cowardly etc)

Oh yeah, the bit about keeping Baldur in Hel. I forgot about that.

[stds-r-4-lovers.livejournal.com]

Well, Helheim is the equivalant of a Viking Hell- it is where all of the oathbreakers, cowards and traitors go when they die... Those are three of the biggest, baddest no-nos for as Viking... killing, raping... thats fine, but not fighting? You're fucked.